Mancini - Part of the problem or part of the solution?

[Blue John]

Time for a new thread, what what?!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating either position on the subject of whether our manager is the messiah or not, but I am concerned after yesterday (yes, yes, it was only pre-season, I know) whether Mancini has what it takes to move us up a level and really compete with the top, top teams. I've been a fairly staunch defender of his on here, but I wonder whether the pros outweigh the cons as heavily as I thought.

PROS:

1) Possession game - Getting his players to keep hold of the ball and be patient is surely the way forward. It worked well last season.
2) Single mindedness - He leaves little to chance. Methodical and professional.
3) Defensive improvement - There for all to see.
4) Development of players - Who could argue that Micah, Vinnie and AJ to name but 3, have not improved massively under his tutelage?
5) Good use of subs - By and large has used his substitutes to good effect, particularly in closing games out
6) Proven winner - Italian trophies and now an FA Cup

CONS:

1) Inflexibility/man management - Being ruthless in ostracising the dead wood is one thing. Biting off one's nose to spite one's face is another. You want to leave Bellamy out in the cold? Fine, but don't then bend over backwards for over a year to indulge Balotelli (a player who continues to contribute next to nothing to the City cause) his every whim (letting him miss the FA Cup parade springs to mind). You can't advocate 'togetherness' if you exempt certain players.
2) Lack of variety in the squad. Squillions spent and we are still only geared up for 4-3-3 with 2 x holding midfield players.
3) Lack of pace and width in the squad. Squillions spent and AJ is still the only wide man on the books, whilst the two fastest forwards at the club, Bellend and SWP, are being ushered out of the door.
4) Lack of a Plan B - If the slow, slow, marginally quicker, slow, slow tempo, doesn't bear fruit, we don't seem able to adapt.
5) The continual purchasing (and faith in those already in situ) of players who are strong in one aspect of the game, but defficient in others. Yesterday I watched Rooney, Young, Nani, Wellbeck, Anderson and even Cleverley run us ragged. All mobile, all skillful, all quick, all tenacious. We have purchased Dzeko (£28m), who is neither mobile nor quick, Milner (£24m), who is neither mobile nor quick, Balotelli (£28m), who is not tenacious, Ya Ya Toure (£26m), who is not mobile, Kolarov (£16m), who is not tenacious, and Boateng (£11m - now gone, thank fuck), who was neither mobile nor tenacious. Chuck in De Jong, Lescott and Barry, who are neither quick nor mobile, and you're left with a core of team that whilst it is comprised of players of undoubted ability is limited in the variety of ways it can play.
6) Too cautious against the top sides - This may be because Mancini realises he doesn't have the personnel to play swashbuckling stuff, but if that's the case then it's his fault for not bringing such players in. Our default mode against the top teams, is to sit deep and not press the man on the ball. Last season in games at home to the rags and Spurs, and away to Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea and the Arse, I don't think we managed more than 5 serious attempts on goal in the entire 6 games. That is a shocking inditement of the way we play, and we will never overhaul united unless we change. We kicked sand in a lot of smaller teams faces last season, courtesy of the superior players at our disposal, games the old City would have lost. Wolves and Blackpool could not cope with Tevez, Wigan and West Ham could not cope with Ya Ya, but against the better teams we were reduced to (admittedly) ruthlessly efficient defending.

So is he the man for the job? Depends what the job is I guess

[ob1]

Simple, short answer is that Mancini has earned the right to be judged again at the end of this season. Of course, he will be continually judged in the media and on forums. Oh, and I do think he can win the league with City but I cannot guarantee it or say that he does not have faults that frustrate me.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but hasn't Bobby been pretty accurate in his own assessments of his team and what they can / will do?

I need to get back to working but let me pick up one point on pace: two of the three outfield players that he has bought so far this window have pace and I don't think Savic is exactly a carthorse but I'm not exactly sure how his pace rates.

I will return to this debate.

[Eric, Dutch]

I thought somebody wrote this thread on behalf of my name with BJ criticizing. Turns out it's BJ himself losing trust in Mancini. Because that's what happened if you write a thread like this. With OB1 obviously to wary to hack in straight away and taking on a more reverse stand (i.e. waiting for others to put in their bit?), I'll be the bad guy. Again. Why waste my "reputation".
Well BJ, the production of this thread is totaly misplaced and mistimed imo. Yes me, the one who got a lot of stick for criticizing Mancini last season. And all of a sudden, with a strong finish last season, a FA-trophy in the cabinet and direct qualification in the groupstages of the Champions League, this thread comes up because the team had a howler vs United? If you are honest BJ, you would have served this thread long before todays game or at least have pushed your cons on here sooner like i did.

Anyway, you all know my opinion about Mancini and yesterdays game has not changed it. I wanna see Mancini improve where I think he can do (imo that is), like I want certain players to improve where I feel they could be defended one way or another for not performing to their expectations. I'm looking for continuity at the club where 30 years of mismanagement had nearly made us copy Leeds United when the ADUG took over. Mancini has been at our club for 1,5 season, hardly enough time to get continuity at the clubs management.
But we can also get back to changing managers and bring in another new 10 players as long as the money is available.

[ob1]

Eric,

Do yourself a favour a keep comments like: "With OB1 obviously to wary to hack in straight away and taking on a more reverse stand (i.e. waiting for others to put in their bit?)".

I don't need anyone else's opinion to be expressed before weighing in with my own but I do realise that my opinion may not be borne out by reality. I've already said that I think Mancini can win the league with City but the fact that I think he is talented enough to do so doesn't mean that he will or that I can't see reasons why he may fail that will be his fault, as opposed to myriad reasons why he might fail that are not fundamentally down to him. The manager wanted more new player in place by now and the fact that he hasn't is, I assume, down to other people. It is now most definitely at the point where it is unhelpful not to have bought Nasri but it's not an insurmountable issue so long as we do buy him or a suitable alternative.

[chopper]

Good thread....I`m about to hit the hay as I have to start a new job {finally} in the morning, but the one point I will raise is that Mancini is clearly on record as saying he needs two or three more players in, identifying a wide player and a creative mid {hopefully these will be players with a bit more toe John} as his priorities. There have been 9 out the door and 4 in so far this window, I think that shows that he is doing his utmost to remodel the squad and address the areas he believes need fixing. Only when he has finished his dealings will we be able to judge which way he has taken the squad and whether he has addressed our lack of pace problem. Add to that the huge spanner twatface threw into the works and it probably hasn`t been all beer and skittles for the manager. Oh, and I still believe there are other areas of our recruitment that he isn`t impressed with.....more later.

[Blue John]

Eric,

Do yourself a favour a keep comments like: "With OB1 obviously to wary to hack in straight away and taking on a more reverse stand (i.e. waiting for others to put in their bit?)".

I don't need anyone else's opinion to be expressed before weighing in with my own but I do realise that my opinion may not be borne out by reality. I've already said that I think Mancini can win the league with City but the fact that I think he is talented enough to do so doesn't mean that he will or that I can't see reasons why he may fail that will be his fault, as opposed to myriad reasons why he might fail that are not fundamentally down to him. The manager wanted more new player in place by now and the fact that he hasn't is, I assume, down to other people. It is now most definitely at the point where it is unhelpful not to have bought Nasri but it's not an insurmountable issue so long as we do buy him or a suitable alternative.

And whilst we're on the subject Eric, you can put a sock in bilge like 'If you are honest BJ, you would have served this thread long before todays game or at least have pushed your cons on here sooner like i did'. Erm, not at all Eric. I was quite happy with the job Mancini did last season, and there's a world of difference between having reservations about a manager, but still believing they are the best man for the job (ie me now), and laying into them and wanting them out altogether (ie you last season). We are now though about to enter a higher tier of operations, with Barca, Madrid, Milan and United as our enemies, and my query is whether the defficiencies I highlighted, which we got away with in the Prem, predominantly because of our record against the duff teams, will go similarly unpunished in the race for the title (rather than 4th place) and the Champions League, and/or whether we will need a new style of play to succeed in these lofty environs.

OB1 - I take your point about Mancini having several times pinpointed where our problems lie, but we are now 18 months in, and those problems still haven't actually been addressed. I hope we are not pinning all our hopes on getting Nasri, and I think we should put the squeeze on both player and club, by publicly courting Mata. Kronke might then intervene if he thinks Nasri's definitely gonna leave on a free!

[Bryan]

Great thread BJ!

I'll dive straight in and say - PART OF THE SOLUTION.

Here are my reasons:

1. He took over a club with at least one self destruct button, famous for shooting itself in the foot, cups for cock ups etc. etc.. Even we, the fans, had come to regard the whole thing as a bit of a joke. (Of course, we masked this by calling it 'self depracating humour') Nobody regards us as a joke anymore. Obviously, this is not entirely down to Mancini, but if we were still crap he would most certainly be taking all of the blame.

2. He took over a squad full of strange characters. Some with undoubted talent, but questionable character. Bellamy has never settled at any club and never will, Adebayor appears to be somewhat similar and seems to think that he is Pele, Crujff and Gullitt rolled into one and believes everyone should love him even when he just can't be bothered. Steven Ireland? Cuckoo! Cuckoo! The whole squad had the resilience of a piece of tissue paper in a thunderstorm. He's not there yet but Mancini has had to sort out this collection of ego's, trouble causers, ne'erdowells and Jo whilst producing results out on the pitch. Some he's got or getting rid of, others he has helped to improve. Does anyone doubt that the squad is stronger now than the day he first walked through the door? Yes, he's spent money, so do the managers of Chelsea, Liverpool and the rags and they have been doing it for years. Mark Hughes spent lots of money, it doesn't always bring results.

3. He IS a winner. So far just the FA Cup, but that in his first full season. It may, in time, become fashionable to sniff at this achievement but how many managers have we had at City who DIDN'T win anything? Even if there are some doubters amongst the fans, I'm pretty sure that the players now believe in him. The Charity Shield defeat may have been a kick in the balls for all concerned but it just could be the wake up call that strengthens the club's resolve to achieve the next step in our development.

Like everybody else, I also have my frustrations:

1. It 'does my head in' when we play the slow, slow, build up. This is especially the case when we are playing against opposition I think we could defeat heavily with a bit more adventure or ruthlessness.

2. More often than not, we fail to beat the top teams. This is often down to a very cautious approach, which is characteristic of the manager. I have not been critical of this to date, as for decades we have been niaive, unprofessional - a soft touch. The odd good result far outweighed by the many, many points thrown away through careless 'amatuerism'. This is one of the reasons I like De Jong so much, he epitomises this change, disciplined and uncompromising. Last season though, I witnessed at least 2 games {rags (h) and Chelsea (a)} where a bit more aggression could have earned more points. If we are to be serious contenders for the Premiership, this will need to change. We are going to have to start beating Chelsea, Spurs and the rags, and defeating Liverpool and Arsenal on a regular basis.


So, in terms of substance over style, I'm happy with Mancini. 10th to 5th to 3rd and a cup in successive seasons is evidence of movement in the right direction. I'm just hoping that acquisitions over the next three weeks will bring both success and a more consistantly thrilling spectacle.

[ob1]

BJ,

I think Bobby wants more than just Nasri; especially if Tevez actually leaves us this month. I think we've made mistakes in the transfer market under Bobby but nothing like to the degree that we've seen in the past. I also think that he / the club have decided that wholesale changes to the squad are not, now, the way to do things (for several reasons that I assume I don't need to expand?) and that we have to give the squad time to develop together, whilst still trying to address the weakest points via the transfer market / continually fine tuning. Although, you could say that Bobby is still trying to do a bit more than fine tune if, as reported, he still wants three more players. The right three signings could make a big difference to us. Tevez staying, could make a big difference to us: don't anybody tell me that he didn't have the potential to improve us yesterday.

Bobby has already stated that we must score more goals this season, which I trust means against both good and bad teams and also means that he knows that we must be less cautious. I also thought it was important that he criticised the team for not playing high enough up the park yesterday. Until proven otherwise, I will stick to my belief that Bobby started at the back and has always intended to have his team become more expansive; when he feels that they are up to it.

[ob1]

We are now though about to enter a higher tier of operations, with Barca, Madrid, Milan and United as our enemies, and my query is whether the defficiencies I highlighted, which we got away with in the Prem, predominantly because of our record against the duff teams, will go similarly unpunished in the race for the title (rather than 4th place) and the Champions League, and/or whether we will need a new style of play to succeed in these lofty environs.

Talking of a higher tier of operations, the thing that cost Bobby his Inter job was failure in the CL but I remember watching Inter go out to Liverpool that year and frankly Inter were unlucky but that's cup football for you. Mancini produced an Inter team that lost only once in their second championship season and scored plenty of goals. People in the UK have gone out of their way to denigrate Mancini's achievements there but he did an excellent job and would undoubtedly, IMO, have kept won the Serie A titles that Jose did had he stayed but may not have won the CL. Let's not forget, Bobby's first trophy at Inter was the Italian Cup.

[Eric, Dutch]

[quote] BJ: Erm, not at all Eric. I was quite happy with the job Mancini did last season, and there's a world of difference between having reservations about a manager, but still believing they are the best man for the job (ie me now), and laying into them and wanting them out altogether (ie you last season). [unquote]

Your memory let you down mate. I never have said I wanted Mancini out. Ask PJS to do some research for you, because you don't seem to bother when you're blating. But it was clearly you that defended him i.e. slagging me off for having reservations. You were happy with the job Mancini did last season. Most cons on here were there last season. What changed it? What thread next week when we beat Swansea 6-0? ... pff.